Pegelic alphabet

[Florian Hess]

Hi artlangers,


Here is the alphabet of my artificial language Pègla (lit: "Talk to each
other"), i.e. an extract of my still off-line website. I couldn't help
redefining a quarter of the latin alphabet to avoid diacritics as far as
possible. I ask for your feedback: How do you like it?

=========================================================================
Low Lore of Pegelic Speech
Alphabet and pronounciation


The first thing I want present you is the pegelic typo-alphabet that is
named Typon. That is because it is based on the latin letters that you
are (supposed to be) familiar with. Furthermore, that's the alphabet for
electronic communication. When I introduce you to Fluidon, the pegelic
softly curved hand-script, the output of this will be based on
png-bitmaps. Therefore, using Fluidon generally, I'd bloat up this
web-site enormously.

The table below shows all letters Typon consists of, that is the entire
latin alphabet. Alot have got another sound than they used to have there
(marked by an *), because I really wanted to avoid other diacritics but
the stress/length-accents of the vowels ´, `, and ^. That's why pegelic
words might look unpronouncable and consonant-clustered to people
unfamiliar with Pègla, although they are nearly all very light and
melodious.
a This letter is equal to the real a of the latin alphabet (like in
"bark"). It can bear the accent aigu (á: lengthened, wide-open) and the
circumflex (â: short, peaky as in "upper").
b This letter is equal to the b of the latin alphabet.
c* This letter is not pronounced as in "acid" or in "car", in Typon c is
a vowel without any stress and form full vowels have. Simply relax, open
the mouth a bit and start your voice, that is it, called "schwa"
(hebrew). Englisch examples: _a_go, bett_e_r.
d This letter is equal to the d of the latin alphabet
e pronounced as in "get" or "bed". e can bear the accent aigu (é:
lengthened, wide-open as in "at"), the accent grave (è: straight, even
as in german "eh" or french "-er", "-é"), or the circumflex (ê: short,
peaky as in "getting").
f* This letter is not pronounced as in "father" or "enough", but is a
voiceless flap (the tip of the tongue strikes the alveols; try to avoid
voice). If doubled (...ff...), it is trilled instead (several
high-frequent strikes). Compare to r
g This letter is equal to the g of the latin alphabet.
h This letter is equal to the h of the latin alphabet. If preceeding
neither vowel nor fricative, it is pronounced as an aspirated schwa.
i This letter is equal to the i of the latin alphabet. If as is,
pronounced weakly (i-slanted schwa). It can bear the accent aigu (í:
long, real i as in "employee") or the circumflex (î: stressed i-slanted
schwa as in "bit") which turns to an accent grave if an a/e/o/ú follows
(î + a => ìa). If unstressed, preceeding a/e/i/ú and preceeded by h,
this is a digraph pronounced as j. If without h, pronounced as short j
without frication (semi-vowel).
j This letter is equal to the j of the latin alphabet. Voiced unless
preceeded by h, p, q or t.
k* This letter is not pronounced as in "key", but like german or french
"r" (uvular). Voiced unless preceeded by h, p, q or t.
l This letter is equal to the l of the latin alphabet.
m This letter is equal to the m of the latin alphabet.
n This letter is equal to the n of the latin alphabet.
o pronounced as in "god" or "bosh". o can bear the accent aigu (ó:
lengthened, wide-open as in "law"), the accent grave (ò: straight, even
as in german "oh" or french "-au-"), or the circumflex (ê: short, peaky
as in "long").
p This letter is equal to the p of the latin alphabet
q This letter is equal to the q of the latin alphabet, but it doesn't
need a -u to preceed it. For it is the only uvular plosive in Typon
whereas English & co. has got c (before a,o,u) and k, too.
r* This letter is the voiced aequivalent of f*. once => flap / doubled=>
trill.
s This letter is equal to the s of the latin alphabet. Voiced unless
preceeded by h, p, q or t.
t This letter is equal to the t of the latin alphabet.
u This letter is equal to the u of the latin alphabet. If as is,
pronounced weakly (u-slanted schwa). It can bear the accent aigu (ú:
long, real u as in - as a spaniard would pronounce it: "goose") or the
circumflex (û: stressed u-slanted schwa as in "push") which turns to an
accent grave if an a/e/o/í follows (û + a => ùa). If unstressed,
preceeding a/e/o/í and preceeded by h, this is a digraph pronounced as
y*. If without h, pronounced as short y* without frication at the lips
(semi-vowel)
v* This letter is not pronounced as in "value" or "drive", but has no
sound of its own in Typon. It only appears before an a, e or o,
nasalizing these ( i.e. vo = french "on" ). At the end of a word,
however, you write always ô ("roof-v"). Don't matter about the
similarity to the short&peaky-accent. This accent never appears at the
end of a word, so a a/e/o + circumflex at the end of a word always means
nasalization.
w* This letter is not pronounced as in "weed" or "unwrap", but its sound
differs depending on its position: a full nasal like m or n (i.e.
between two vowels), respectively a nasalized schwa (*vc <= wrong!) i.e.
in end-position after a consonant.
x* This letter is not pronounced ks, but like english th in "the".
Unvoiced if preceeded by h, p, q or t.
y* This letter is not pronounced as in "yes" or "empty", but is equal to
the latin letter v resp. w in east-european languages. Unvoiced if
preceeded by h, p, q or t (hy => pronounced as in "father").
z* This letter is not pronounced as in "zip" or "kibbutz", but
corresponds to french j in "jour" or english "jam" (without d-start, not
affricative). Unvoiced if preceeded by h, p, q or t (hz => pronounced as
sh).


consistent?

FLoH.


PS: Single-phrase samples soon.

[Garth Wallace]

Post by Florian Hess
=========================================================================
Low Lore of Pegelic Speech
Alphabet and pronounciation

Here's my attempt at rendering this into X-SAMPA (as per convention,
orthographic units are bracketed with <> and phonemic transcriptions

Post by Florian Hess
a This letter is equal to the real a of the latin alphabet (like in
"bark"). It can bear the accent aigu (á: lengthened, wide-open) and the
circumflex (â: short, peaky as in "upper").

<a> = /a/
<á> = /a:>
<â> = /6_X/ (? AFAICT, the "u" in "upper" is a schwa)

Post by Florian Hess
b This letter is equal to the b of the latin alphabet.

/b/

Post by Florian Hess
c* This letter is not pronounced as in "acid" or in "car", in Typon c is
a vowel without any stress and form full vowels have. Simply relax, open
the mouth a bit and start your voice, that is it, called "schwa"
(hebrew). Englisch examples: _a_go, bett_e_r.

/@/

Just so you know, the second "e" in "better" does not represent a
single sound on its own. The "er" is a digraph that's pronounced /@`/
(in American English).

Post by Florian Hess
d This letter is equal to the d of the latin alphabet

/d/

Post by Florian Hess
lengthened, wide-open as in "at"), the accent grave (è: straight, even
as in german "eh" or french "-er", "-é"), or the circumflex (ê: short,
peaky as in "getting").

<e> = /E/
<é> = /{/ or maybe /{:/
<è> = /e/ (I think. I don't know German or French)
<ê> = /E_X/ (? I don't hear any difference between the "e" in "get"
and "getting")

Post by Florian Hess
f* This letter is not pronounced as in "father" or "enough", but is a
voiceless flap (the tip of the tongue strikes the alveols; try to avoid
voice). If doubled (...ff...), it is trilled instead (several
high-frequent strikes). Compare to r

<f> = /4_0/
<ff> = /r_0/

Post by Florian Hess
g This letter is equal to the g of the latin alphabet.

/g/

Post by Florian Hess
h This letter is equal to the h of the latin alphabet. If preceeding
neither vowel nor fricative, it is pronounced as an aspirated schwa.
i This letter is equal to the i of the latin alphabet. If as is,
long, real i as in "employee") or the circumflex (î: stressed i-slanted
schwa as in "bit") which turns to an accent grave if an a/e/o/ú follows
(î + a => ìa). If unstressed, preceeding a/e/i/ú and preceeded by h,
this is a digraph pronounced as j. If without h, pronounced as short j
without frication (semi-vowel).

<i> = /@\/ or maybe /1/
<í> = /i/
<î>, <ì> = /I/
<hi> before <a><e><i><ú> = /j/
<i> before <a><e><i><ú> = /j/ (? /j/ is already a semivowel, not a
fricative)

Post by Florian Hess
j This letter is equal to the j of the latin alphabet. Voiced unless
preceeded by h, p, q or t.

/j/ with allophone [j_0]

Saying "equal to the j of the Latin alphabet" is unclear. The letter j
is used for two very different phonemes depending on the language. In
English it's the voiced postalveolar affricate /dZ/ (the voiced
equivalent to <ch>) while in, say, German, it's the voiced palatal
approximant /j/ (which in English is written "y"). I'm guessing you
mean the approximant, based on how you referred to it when describing
<i>.

Post by Florian Hess
k* This letter is not pronounced as in "key", but like german or french
"r" (uvular). Voiced unless preceeded by h, p, q or t.

/R\/

Post by Florian Hess
l This letter is equal to the l of the latin alphabet.

/l/

Post by Florian Hess
m This letter is equal to the m of the latin alphabet.

/m/

Post by Florian Hess
n This letter is equal to the n of the latin alphabet.

/n/

Post by Florian Hess
lengthened, wide-open as in "law"), the accent grave (ò: straight, even
as in german "oh" or french "-au-"), or the circumflex (ê: short, peaky
as in "long").

<o> = /Q/
<ó> = /Q:/ (? I don't hear a difference between the vowels in "god"
and "law")
<ò> = /o/ (I think)
/ê/ = /Q_X/ (Another one where I detect no difference)

Post by Florian Hess
p This letter is equal to the p of the latin alphabet

/p/

Post by Florian Hess
q This letter is equal to the q of the latin alphabet, but it doesn't
need a -u to preceed it. For it is the only uvular plosive in Typon
whereas English & co. has got c (before a,o,u) and k, too.

/q/ (? English <c> and <k> aren't uvular, they're velar or palatal.
Are you sure you don't mean /k_w/?)

BTW, "precede" means "to come before". So, in "qu", the "q" precedes
the "u", not the other way around. "To come after" is "succeed" (which
also means "to win").

Post by Florian Hess
r* This letter is the voiced aequivalent of f*. once => flap / doubled=>
trill.

<r> = /4/
<rr> = /r/

Post by Florian Hess
s This letter is equal to the s of the latin alphabet. Voiced unless
preceeded by h, p, q or t.

<s> = /z/ with allophone [s]

Post by Florian Hess
t This letter is equal to the t of the latin alphabet.

/t/

Post by Florian Hess
u This letter is equal to the u of the latin alphabet. If as is,
long, real u as in - as a spaniard would pronounce it: "goose") or the
circumflex (û: stressed u-slanted schwa as in "push") which turns to an
accent grave if an a/e/o/í follows (û + a => ùa). If unstressed,
preceeding a/e/o/í and preceeded by h, this is a digraph pronounced as
y*. If without h, pronounced as short y* without frication at the lips
(semi-vowel)

<u> = /8/? /}/? /U/?
<ú> = /u/
<û>, <ù> = same as <u>?
<hu> before <a><e><i><ú> = /w/
<u> before <a><e><i><ú> = /w/ (???)

Post by Florian Hess
v* This letter is not pronounced as in "value" or "drive", but has no
sound of its own in Typon. It only appears before an a, e or o,
nasalizing these ( i.e. vo = french "on" ). At the end of a word,
however, you write always ô ("roof-v"). Don't matter about the
similarity to the short&peaky-accent. This accent never appears at the
end of a word, so a a/e/o + circumflex at the end of a word always means
nasalization.

just nasalizes succeeding vowel

Post by Florian Hess
w* This letter is not pronounced as in "weed" or "unwrap", but its sound
differs depending on its position: a full nasal like m or n (i.e.
between two vowels), respectively a nasalized schwa (*vc <= wrong!) i.e.
in end-position after a consonant.

intervocallically, /m/ (? Is there a difference?)

Post by Florian Hess
x* This letter is not pronounced ks, but like english th in "the".
Unvoiced if preceeded by h, p, q or t.

/D/ with allophone /T/

Post by Florian Hess
y* This letter is not pronounced as in "yes" or "empty", but is equal to
the latin letter v resp. w in east-european languages. Unvoiced if
preceeded by h, p, q or t (hy => pronounced as in "father").

/w/ with allophone /W/ (and /f/?)

Post by Florian Hess
z* This letter is not pronounced as in "zip" or "kibbutz", but
corresponds to french j in "jour" or english "jam" (without d-start, not
affricative). Unvoiced if preceeded by h, p, q or t (hz => pronounced as
sh).

/Z/ with allophone /S/.

Post by Florian Hess
consistent?

I'm not sure. It seems odd...but I'm not sure if I fully understood
your description (actually, I'm sure I didn't, hence all the question
marks).

[Florian Hess]

Post by Garth Wallace
Here's my attempt at rendering this into X-SAMPA (as per convention,
orthographic units are bracketed with <> and phonemic transcriptions

Hey, thank you very much. If you mind I could embed this into my
webpage. But then I doubt: Would Joe Sixpack understand it?

Post by Garth Wallace

Post by Florian Hess
a This letter is equal to the real a of the latin alphabet (like in
"bark"). It can bear the accent aigu (á: lengthened, wide-open)
and the circumflex (â: short, peaky as in "upper").

<a> = /a/ <á> = /a:> <â> = /6_X/ (? AFAICT, the "u" in "upper" is a
schwa)

As in all languages English has got dialect areas, too. My standard is
the triangle CNN int. - BBC - former english teacher. In this regard, my
upper thus is pronounced /appa/. O.k., I don't overemphasize the first a
(u), but it is an a-slanted schwa at least.

Post by Garth Wallace

Post by Florian Hess
c* This letter is not pronounced as in "acid" or in "car", in Typon
c is a vowel without any stress and form full vowels have. Simply
relax, open the mouth a bit and start your voice, that is it,
called "schwa" (hebrew). Englisch examples: _a_go, bett_e_r.

Just so you know, the second "e" in "better" does not represent a
(in American English).

I knew but I've forgotten.

Post by Garth Wallace

Post by Florian Hess
lengthened, wide-open as in "at"), the accent grave (è: straight,
even as in german "eh" or french "-er", "-é"), or the circumflex
(ê: short, peaky as in "getting").

<e> = /E/ <é> = /{/ or maybe /{:/ <è> = /e/ (I think. I don't know
German or French) <ê> = /E_X/ (? I don't hear any difference between
the "e" in "get" and "getting")

The first was an example related to <e> in general, the second
especially for the peaky-e, because the twosyllabic "getting"
demonstrates where the stress lies (in my alphabet, accented vowels
always are stressed vowels and vice versa). There really isn't any
qualitative phonetic difference between <e> and <ê>. The first is
unstressed, but the second is stressed.

Post by Garth Wallace
<a><e><i><ú> = /j/ <i> before <a><e><i><ú> = /j/ (? /j/ is already a
semivowel, not a fricative)

Hasn't your code different symbols for fricative and non-fricative /j/?
That may be what I need.

!!! I meant <(h)i> before <a><e><o><ú>; I get fed up with copy and paste.

Post by Garth Wallace
/j/ with allophone [j_0]
Saying "equal to the j of the Latin alphabet" is unclear. The letter
j is used for two very different phonemes depending on the language.
In English it's the voiced postalveolar affricate /dZ/ (the voiced
equivalent to <ch>) while in, say, German, it's the voiced palatal
approximant /j/ (which in English is written "y"). I'm guessing you
mean the approximant, based on how you referred to it when describing
<i>.

That's so. Thanks for the warning.

Post by Garth Wallace
<o> = /Q/ <ó> = /Q:/ (? I don't hear a difference between the vowels
in "god" and "law")

...same as above...

Post by Garth Wallace
<ò> = /o/ (I think) /ê/ = /Q_X/ (Another one where I detect no
difference)

<ô> is the stressed version of <o>. In general, Pègla has 3 symbols how
to pronounce stressed vowels:
<^> normal stress, no modification of the base vowel; no lengthening
<´> opens the vowel widely; ++length
<`> takes the <a>-share out of the sound; ++length

Post by Garth Wallace
/q/ (? English <c> and <k> aren't uvular, they're velar or palatal.
Are you sure you don't mean /k_w/?)

I did mean it.

Post by Garth Wallace
BTW, "precede" means "to come before". So, in "qu", the "q" precedes
the "u", not the other way around. "To come after" is "succeed"
(which also means "to win").

Yeah, I mixed up this here. But I did scan my draft several times before
posting, and in despite I decover the mistakes only when it's all done :-|.

Post by Garth Wallace

Post by Florian Hess
r* This letter is the voiced aequivalent of f*. once => flap /
doubled=> trill.

<r> = /4/ <rr> = /r/

Post by Florian Hess
s This letter is equal to the s of the latin alphabet. Voiced
unless preceeded by h, p, q or t.

<s> = /z/ with allophone [s]

Post by Florian Hess
t This letter is equal to the t of the latin alphabet.

/t/

Post by Florian Hess
u This letter is equal to the u of the latin alphabet. If as is,
pronounced weakly (u-slanted schwa). It can bear the accent aigu
(ú: long, real u as in - as a spaniard would pronounce it: "goose")
or the circumflex (û: stressed u-slanted schwa as in "push") which
turns to an accent grave if an a/e/o/í follows (û + a => ùa). If
unstressed, preceeding a/e/o/í and preceeded by h, this is a
digraph pronounced as y*. If without h, pronounced as short y*
without frication at the lips (semi-vowel)

<u> = /8/? /}/? /U/? <ú> = /u/ <û>, <ù> = same as <u>?

yes, <û>, <ù> are stressed <u>. s.a. ( The accent grave <ù> has got a
slightly different meaning here: It stands for <û> connected to a
semivowel <u-> before an open vowel: <ù> = <ûu> + <a|e|o|í|>)

<hu> before

Post by Garth Wallace
<a><e><i><ú> = /w/ <u> before <a><e><i><ú> = /w/ (???)

*gr* I meant <a><e><o><í>.

same as above. /w/ with frication and without.

Post by Garth Wallace
just nasalizes succeeding vowel

O.k., I just put an eye on Joe-Sixpack-compatibility.

Post by Garth Wallace
intervocallically, /m/ (? Is there a difference?) in end position,

not /m/, but <ng>. At end-position: nasalized schwa.

Post by Garth Wallace

Post by Florian Hess
y* This letter is not pronounced as in "yes" or "empty", but is
equal to the latin letter v resp. w in east-european languages.
Unvoiced if preceeded by h, p, q or t (hy => pronounced as in
"father").

/w/ with allophone /W/ (and /f/?)

fric-/w/; with allophone: /f/

Post by Garth Wallace

Post by Florian Hess
consistent?

I'm not sure. It seems odd...but I'm not sure if I fully understood
your description (actually, I'm sure I didn't, hence all the question
marks).

Has this posting done a good job? ;-)


FLoH.

[Garth Wallace]

Post by Florian Hess

Post by Garth Wallace
Here's my attempt at rendering this into X-SAMPA (as per convention,
orthographic units are bracketed with <> and phonemic transcriptions

Hey, thank you very much. If you mind I could embed this into my
webpage. But then I doubt: Would Joe Sixpack understand it?

Joe Sipack probably wouldn't understand it (then again, he's not going
to understand much linguistic terminology at all).

If you want to show phonemes on your webpage, I'd suggest using the
true IPA instead of X-SAMPA. X-SAMPA only exists for ASCII-only
mediums (technically, netnews isn't ASCII-only, but most newsreaders
don't support Unicode text entry very well).

Loading Image... has
the IPA chart with X-SAMPA equivalents in blue.

Post by Florian Hess

Post by Garth Wallace

Post by Florian Hess
a This letter is equal to the real a of the latin alphabet (like in
"bark"). It can bear the accent aigu (á: lengthened, wide-open)
and the circumflex (â: short, peaky as in "upper").

<a> = /a/ <á> = /a:> <â> = /6_X/ (? AFAICT, the "u" in "upper" is a
schwa)

As in all languages English has got dialect areas, too. My standard is
the triangle CNN int. - BBC - former english teacher. In this regard, my
upper thus is pronounced /appa/. O.k., I don't overemphasize the first a
(u), but it is an a-slanted schwa at least.

Ah, okay.

Post by Florian Hess

Post by Garth Wallace

Post by Florian Hess
lengthened, wide-open as in "at"), the accent grave (è: straight,
even as in german "eh" or french "-er", "-é"), or the circumflex
(ê: short, peaky as in "getting").

<e> = /E/ <é> = /{/ or maybe /{:/ <è> = /e/ (I think. I don't know
German or French) <ê> = /E_X/ (? I don't hear any difference between
the "e" in "get" and "getting")

The first was an example related to <e> in general, the second
especially for the peaky-e, because the twosyllabic "getting"
demonstrates where the stress lies (in my alphabet, accented vowels
always are stressed vowels and vice versa). There really isn't any
qualitative phonetic difference between <e> and <ê>. The first is
unstressed, but the second is stressed.

Okay, so it's a stress thing (I'm assuming dynamic stress, not pitch
stress?). That makes sense.

Post by Florian Hess

Post by Garth Wallace
<a><e><i><ú> = /j/ <i> before <a><e><i><ú> = /j/ (? /j/ is already a
semivowel, not a fricative)

Hasn't your code different symbols for fricative and non-fricative /j/?
That may be what I need.

No, because /j/ is an approximant. The corresponding fricative is /C/.

Post by Florian Hess
!!! I meant <(h)i> before <a><e><o><ú>; I get fed up with copy and paste.

Post by Garth Wallace
/j/ with allophone [j_0]
Saying "equal to the j of the Latin alphabet" is unclear. The letter
j is used for two very different phonemes depending on the language.
In English it's the voiced postalveolar affricate /dZ/ (the voiced
equivalent to <ch>) while in, say, German, it's the voiced palatal
approximant /j/ (which in English is written "y"). I'm guessing you
mean the approximant, based on how you referred to it when describing
<i>.

That's so. Thanks for the warning.

Post by Garth Wallace
<ò> = /o/ (I think) /ê/ = /Q_X/ (Another one where I detect no
difference)

<ô> is the stressed version of <o>. In general, Pègla has 3 symbols how
<^> normal stress, no modification of the base vowel; no lengthening
<´> opens the vowel widely; ++length

Not sure what you mean by "open the vowel widely". Usually, "open"
means the low vowels like /a/.

Post by Florian Hess
<`> takes the <a>-share out of the sound; ++length

Also not sure what "takes the <a>-share out" means. Does it move
towards the schwa? Does the place of articulation move up, away from
/a/, /6/, and /A/?

Post by Florian Hess

Post by Garth Wallace
/q/ (? English <c> and <k> aren't uvular, they're velar or palatal.
Are you sure you don't mean /k_w/?)

I did mean it.

Okay. Strange that you have a labialized unvoiced velar plosive /k_w/
and a non-labialized voiced velar plosive /g/, but labialization is
not universally associated with unvoiced plosives elsewhere (in fact,
this looks like the only place where it appears). Just out of
curiosity, can /w/ follow plosives in consonant clusters in Pègla?

Post by Florian Hess

Post by Garth Wallace
BTW, "precede" means "to come before". So, in "qu", the "q" precedes
the "u", not the other way around. "To come after" is "succeed"
(which also means "to win").

Yeah, I mixed up this here. But I did scan my draft several times before
posting, and in despite I decover the mistakes only when it's all done :-|.

No worries. Everyone makes mistakes. I know of an outdoor-sports book
publishing company that printed a book with "backpack" written as
"backback" on the back cover.

Post by Florian Hess

Post by Garth Wallace

Post by Florian Hess
u This letter is equal to the u of the latin alphabet. If as is,
pronounced weakly (u-slanted schwa). It can bear the accent aigu
(ú: long, real u as in - as a spaniard would pronounce it: "goose")
or the circumflex (û: stressed u-slanted schwa as in "push") which
turns to an accent grave if an a/e/o/í follows (û + a => ùa). If
unstressed, preceeding a/e/o/í and preceeded by h, this is a
digraph pronounced as y*. If without h, pronounced as short y*
without frication at the lips (semi-vowel)

<u> = /8/? /}/? /U/? <ú> = /u/ <û>, <ù> = same as <u>?

yes, <û>, <ù> are stressed <u>. s.a. ( The accent grave <ù> has got a
slightly different meaning here: It stands for <û> connected to a
semivowel <u-> before an open vowel: <ù> = <ûu> + <a|e|o|í|>)

So, would the grave accent on <u> only be used before another vowel in
a cluster?

Post by Florian Hess
same as above. /w/ with frication and without.

Again, /w/ is an approimant, not a fricative. It's a double
articulation (labial-velar), so the corresponding fricative would
technically be something like /p\_x/ (sounds like coughing up a
lunger!), but it's usually treated as a labial so the fricative would
probably be /p\/ (the "ph" sound).

Post by Florian Hess

Post by Garth Wallace
intervocallically, /m/ (? Is there a difference?) in end position,

not /m/, but <ng>. At end-position: nasalized schwa.

As, I see. I could see that happening.

Post by Florian Hess

Post by Garth Wallace

Post by Florian Hess
y* This letter is not pronounced as in "yes" or "empty", but is
equal to the latin letter v resp. w in east-european languages.
Unvoiced if preceeded by h, p, q or t (hy => pronounced as in
"father").

/w/ with allophone /W/ (and /f/?)

fric-/w/; with allophone: /f/

No such thing as a "fricativized" /w/. Maybe /p\/ with allophone /f/?
I know that English doesn't treat /p\/ and /f/ differently in most
cases.

Post by Florian Hess

Post by Garth Wallace

Post by Florian Hess
consistent?

I'm not sure. It seems odd...but I'm not sure if I fully understood
your description (actually, I'm sure I didn't, hence all the question
marks).

Has this posting done a good job? ;-)

Yes, although it raised some new queestions.

[Florian Hess]

Post by Garth Wallace
http://www.diku.dk/hjemmesider/studerende/thorinn/xsamchart.gif has
the IPA chart with X-SAMPA equivalents in blue.

In order to make you understand my alphabet better, I describe my
alphabet again, but with X-SAMPA. See to the bottom of the posting.

Post by Garth Wallace
Okay, so it's a stress thing (I'm assuming dynamic stress, not pitch
stress?). That makes sense.

You need no pitch stress, but you can apply it. But the stress must be
marked via pressure and/or length, at least (pitch-only doesn't suffice).

Post by Garth Wallace
No, because /j/ is an approximant. The corresponding fricative is /C/.

Why not /j\/ ;-).

Post by Garth Wallace

Post by Florian Hess
!!! I meant <(h)i> before <a><e><o><ú>; I get fed up with copy and paste.

Post by Garth Wallace
/j/ with allophone [j_0]

This but is /C/, isn't it?

Post by Garth Wallace
Not sure what you mean by "open the vowel widely". Usually, "open"
means the low vowels like /a/.

"open" simply means to me to let fall the lower jaw. The table seems to
agree to that... *lookingup*

Post by Garth Wallace

Post by Florian Hess
<`> takes the <a>-share out of the sound; ++length

Also not sure what "takes the <a>-share out" means. Does it move
towards the schwa? Does the place of articulation move up, away from
/a/, /6/, and /A/?

I refer then to the close-mid row in your table.

Post by Garth Wallace
Okay. Strange that you have a labialized unvoiced velar plosive /k_w/
and a non-labialized voiced velar plosive /g/, but labialization is
not universally associated with unvoiced plosives elsewhere (in fact,
this looks like the only place where it appears). Just out of
curiosity, can /w/ follow plosives in consonant clusters in Pègla?

*frowning* Ehm, that was a misunderstanding I guess ;-). I meant, the
grapheme <q> is the only _velar_ plosive (my fault) in Pegelic writing,
whereas English and German know <k> and <c> as well. That was to point
out, and that's why the Pegelic <q> does NOT require a succeeding
labializing <u->. Anyway, <qu> is of historical redundance: Why not
writing <kw>?
(Alas, let's continue writing <qu>; such stupid things are something
that makes language live. That's why Pègla is that odd, too - You have
got no idea of my fun setting up all the traps...*hehe*. But, at the
end, Pègla is despite of that all a highly consistent language ;-).)

qe => pronounce /ke/
qa, qi, qu, ... => dito, <qu> has no superiority.

To come to your question: What do you mean with /w/ (a "voiced
labial-velar approximant")? This sound doesn't exist in Pegelic
phonetics, I guess. In case you meant /v\/P/, a <qu> as cluster member,
i.e <qut> would sound /k}t/ - no approximant. For this, a vowel must
succeed: <quá> -> /k_wa/; and don't fricate the <u>, do you?
Btw: <qùa> -> /"k}Pa/ :-)

Post by Garth Wallace
So, would the grave accent on <u> only be used before another vowel in
a cluster?

Exactly. That's what I mean by "traps". It are they that vivify an
artificial language, even if it has no speakers (yet?). My thought has
been: The accent grave goes from up to down. And so does the vowel
quality of the weak but stressed <ì/ù>, that is from schwa-ly to
semivowel/approximant, before the same semivowel introduces (turns to)
the vowel which succeeds. But then <î/û> must not be written before a
vowel (so it'd only appear between consonants resp. at word start), for
the curve of the accent, up-down, looks anywhat "isolative", doesn't it?

Post by Garth Wallace
No such thing as a "fricativized" /w/. Maybe /p\/ with allophone /f/?
I know that English doesn't treat /p\/ and /f/ differently in most
cases.

Neither will Pègla do. It really isn't relevant in any case whether you
articulate <y/hy> via lips/lower tooth row or upper/lower lip. I don't
here a difference anyway.

Post by Garth Wallace
Yes, although it raised some new queestions.

The following piece of listing will hopely solve these:

8<=====================================================================
NOTE: "!" => This letter is redefined
"?" => matches for <a+>,<e+>,<o+> or <ú> (for i) / <í> (for u)
"*" => matches voiceless plosive or h, or at the end of word
"+" => unstressed/stressed
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

a: /a/ á: /"a:/ â: /"a/

b: /b/ bh: /b_h/

c!: /@/ ( h: /h@/; w: /@~/ )

d: /d/ dh: /d_h/

e: /E/ é: /"{:/ ê: /"E/ è: /e:/

f!: /4_0/ ff: /r_0/

h: /h/@_h/ (if no vowel succeeds, it aspirates /@/)

i: /1/j?/ í: /"i:/"i:j?/ î/ì?: /"1/"1j?/ ( <hi?> == <j?> )

j!: /j\/*C/

k!: /G/*x/

l, m, n: /l/m/n/

o: /O/ ó: /"Q:/ ô: /"O/ ò: /o:/

p: /p/ ph: /p_h/

q!: /k/

r!: /4/ rr: /r/

s: /z/*s/

t: /t/ th: /t_h/

u: /}/P?/ ú: /"}:/"u:P?/ î/ì?: /"}/"}P?/ ( <hu?> == <y?> )

v!: (nasalizes succeeding <a/e/o+>; written <â/ê/ô> if in end-position)

w!: /N/@~/

x!: /D/*T/

y!: /v/*f/

z!: /Z/*S/
=====================================================================>8

Btw, the diphthongs: ai,au,ei,eu,oi,ou,ui,iu,(ci,cu). For the accents,
they only accept the acute <´> upon the left-hand side. <^> and <`> or
if the right is accented, this breaks them down to simple vowels:
"mêunò" -> /"me.}.no:/ ^= [dir] pgl. 'left' ("mêuncs" ^= to the left,
"mêuní" ^= from the left, "mêunia òsyo" ^= a/the left hand, "mêunín
òsyum" ^= in the left hand, etc.)

APROPROS: I forgot to limit the sentence of the connection between
stress and accent: Vowels at end-position may be accented, but don't
mark the word stress (s. example above). The accents only modify their
lengthes then.

"staûdaln" -> /sta."}.daln/~"P}~/ ^= [adv] in a slepshod way, by one's
own choice (doing sth. ~)
-al ^= a third person thinks that it's slepshod what one is/was doing.
-óz ^= It's supposed to be the fault of others that one does sth. in a
slepshod way.
-èak ^= It lies in one's genes to do sth. slepsholdly and everybody
knows it (that is, statements containing adverbs on -èak are often bound
to be redundant)

More grammer will be posted into this newsgroup in future, since I want
to test the comprehensibility of important stuff before setting it
www-online. In return you are welcome to adopt concepts into your
language (Inform me if you mind). Why shouldn't some "interlingual
exchange" work on artificial languages, where it is highly natural in
natural languages? Occasionally I'd like to do the same from your
projects (again: if you mind), but I haven't done so yet.

These postings will have the header initialized with "[PSL]" (Pegelic
Speech Lore), for example:

header: [PSL] Nouns, compacts, pronouns and vectors.


So: Have an eye out,
FLoH.

[y***@gmail.com]

Post by Florian Hess
Hi artlangers,
Here is the alphabet of my artificial language Pčgla (lit: "Talk to each
other"), i.e. an extract of my still off-line website. I couldn't help
redefining a quarter of the latin alphabet to avoid diacritics as far as
possible. I ask for your feedback: How do you like it?
=========================================================================
Low Lore of Pegelic Speech
Alphabet and pronounciation
The first thing I want present you is the pegelic typo-alphabet that is
named Typon. That is because it is based on the latin letters that you
are (supposed to be) familiar with. Furthermore, that's the alphabet for
electronic communication. When I introduce you to Fluidon, the pegelic
softly curved hand-script, the output of this will be based on
png-bitmaps. Therefore, using Fluidon generally, I'd bloat up this
web-site enormously.
The table below shows all letters Typon consists of, that is the entire
latin alphabet. Alot have got another sound than they used to have there
(marked by an *), because I really wanted to avoid other diacritics but
the stress/length-accents of the vowels ī, `, and ^. That's why pegelic
words might look unpronouncable and consonant-clustered to people
unfamiliar with Pčgla, although they are nearly all very light and
melodious.
a This letter is equal to the real a of the latin alphabet (like in
"bark"). It can bear the accent aigu (á: lengthened, wide-open) and the
circumflex (â: short, peaky as in "upper").
b This letter is equal to the b of the latin alphabet.
c* This letter is not pronounced as in "acid" or in "car", in Typon c is
a vowel without any stress and form full vowels have. Simply relax, open
the mouth a bit and start your voice, that is it, called "schwa"
(hebrew). Englisch examples: _a_go, bett_e_r.
d This letter is equal to the d of the latin alphabet
lengthened, wide-open as in "at"), the accent grave (č: straight, even
as in german "eh" or french "-er", "-é"), or the circumflex (ę: short,
peaky as in "getting").
f* This letter is not pronounced as in "father" or "enough", but is a
voiceless flap (the tip of the tongue strikes the alveols; try to avoid
voice). If doubled (...ff...), it is trilled instead (several
high-frequent strikes). Compare to r
g This letter is equal to the g of the latin alphabet.
h This letter is equal to the h of the latin alphabet. If preceeding
neither vowel nor fricative, it is pronounced as an aspirated schwa.
i This letter is equal to the i of the latin alphabet. If as is,
long, real i as in "employee") or the circumflex (î: stressed i-slanted
schwa as in "bit") which turns to an accent grave if an a/e/o/ú follows
(î + a => ėa). If unstressed, preceeding a/e/i/ú and preceeded by h,
this is a digraph pronounced as j. If without h, pronounced as short j
without frication (semi-vowel).
j This letter is equal to the j of the latin alphabet. Voiced unless
preceeded by h, p, q or t.
k* This letter is not pronounced as in "key", but like german or french
"r" (uvular). Voiced unless preceeded by h, p, q or t.
l This letter is equal to the l of the latin alphabet.
m This letter is equal to the m of the latin alphabet.
n This letter is equal to the n of the latin alphabet.
lengthened, wide-open as in "law"), the accent grave (ō: straight, even
as in german "oh" or french "-au-"), or the circumflex (ę: short, peaky
as in "long").
p This letter is equal to the p of the latin alphabet
q This letter is equal to the q of the latin alphabet, but it doesn't
need a -u to preceed it. For it is the only uvular plosive in Typon
whereas English & co. has got c (before a,o,u) and k, too.
r* This letter is the voiced aequivalent of f*. once => flap / doubled=>
trill.
s This letter is equal to the s of the latin alphabet. Voiced unless
preceeded by h, p, q or t.
t This letter is equal to the t of the latin alphabet.
u This letter is equal to the u of the latin alphabet. If as is,
long, real u as in - as a spaniard would pronounce it: "goose") or the
circumflex (û: stressed u-slanted schwa as in "push") which turns to an
accent grave if an a/e/o/í follows (û + a => ųa). If unstressed,
preceeding a/e/o/í and preceeded by h, this is a digraph pronounced as
y*. If without h, pronounced as short y* without frication at the lips
(semi-vowel)
v* This letter is not pronounced as in "value" or "drive", but has no
sound of its own in Typon. It only appears before an a, e or o,
nasalizing these ( i.e. vo = french "on" ). At the end of a word,
however, you write always ô ("roof-v"). Don't matter about the
similarity to the short&peaky-accent. This accent never appears at the
end of a word, so a a/e/o + circumflex at the end of a word always means
nasalization.
w* This letter is not pronounced as in "weed" or "unwrap", but its sound
differs depending on its position: a full nasal like m or n (i.e.
between two vowels), respectively a nasalized schwa (*vc <= wrong!) i.e.
in end-position after a consonant.
x* This letter is not pronounced ks, but like english th in "the".
Unvoiced if preceeded by h, p, q or t.
y* This letter is not pronounced as in "yes" or "empty", but is equal to
the latin letter v resp. w in east-european languages. Unvoiced if
preceeded by h, p, q or t (hy => pronounced as in "father").
z* This letter is not pronounced as in "zip" or "kibbutz", but
corresponds to french j in "jour" or english "jam" (without d-start, not
affricative). Unvoiced if preceeded by h, p, q or t (hz => pronounced as
sh).
consistent?
FLoH.
PS: Single-phrase samples soon.