An alien language

[Jyme]

Background -- For many years, I've been playing with the concept of
alien math (not Base10, no zero, etc.) and how hard it might be to
recognize or reconcile with our system.

As I delved deeper into the idea, I realized a basic philosophical
shift was necessary. We accept that many things must be learned by
rote. Aliens might shun that, preferring very few arbitrary symbols,
their combinations/positions giving wider meaning.

This led me to think about the structure of their vocabulary and how
hard it might be for us to understand even the basics.

Current situation -- I've prepared three pages of a spelling primer
for a fictional alien race. I'm interested in knowing if anything
about it is obvious.

http://www.primers.jymes.com/SP001.htm

(There's an explanation page for each, but please don't take one fast
glance at a page and give up.)

(I should warn you that it's rough -- the nature of using 'print
screen' to capture a CAD page, cropping the image, and posting it as a
jpeg. Also, I stopped refining the font when it hit the 'minimum
acceptable clarity' level rather than doing the fiddling bits ad
infinitum.)

Any comments welcome. :)

[Prai Jei]

Post by Jyme
(I should warn you that it's rough -- the nature of using 'print
screen' to capture a CAD page, cropping the image, and posting it as a
jpeg.

Try downloading Cute PDF Writer from the web [1]. This sets up an additional
pseudo printer in your system. You then get your CAD package (or any other)
to print to this, which actually "prints" to a PDF file.

Omeluot sirgun u redara shaluba ha. Si majit dos mis revu em na.
(Anyway, welcome to our little group. It needs some new life brought in.)

[1] http://www.cutepdf.com/products/cutepdf/writer.asp

[Jyme]

On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 11:18:49 +0100, Prai Jei

Post by Prai Jei

Post by Jyme
(I should warn you that it's rough -- the nature of using 'print
screen' to capture a CAD page, cropping the image, and posting it as a
jpeg.

Try downloading Cute PDF Writer from the web [1]. This sets up an additional
pseudo printer in your system. You then get your CAD package (or any other)
to print to this, which actually "prints" to a PDF file.

I've tried .pdf (through Office Suite) and found it presents a whole
new set of problems.

The odd thing is, if I use the "Save Picture As" from the webpage, the
jpg saved looks fine when viewed using any of three different viewers.

It is only when viewed in a browser does it get fuzzy.

Post by Prai Jei
Omeluot sirgun u redara shaluba ha. Si majit dos mis revu em na.

Yeah, uh, sure, right back at'cha.

Post by Prai Jei
(Anyway, welcome to our little group. It needs some new life brought in.)

Ah, thanks!

[Prai Jei]

Post by Jyme

Post by Prai Jei
Omeluot sirgun u redara shaluba ha. Si majit dos mis revu em na.

Yeah, uh, sure, right back at'cha.

THat's what makes this group tick - artificial languages. That's Hallon, the
fantasy language of my childhood, in its final mature form.

[Prai Jei]

Post by Jyme
Current situation -- I've prepared three pages of a spelling primer
for a fictional alien race. I'm interested in knowing if anything
about it is obvious.
http://www.primers.jymes.com/SP001.htm

For an alien race the figures look a tad too humanoid, which already points
us to the "correct" interpretation. Trouble is, we're now stuck with that
and replacing the humanoid by an arbitrary shape would not return us to
innocence.

Though I must say my first thoughts on page 1, reading down the middle
column, were "me", "my partner", "we got together" and "this is the
result". Obviously it's not a grammatical primer at all, it's a sex
education manual :)

[Jyme]

On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 20:32:26 +0100, Prai Jei

Post by Prai Jei

Post by Jyme
Current situation -- I've prepared three pages of a spelling primer
for a fictional alien race. I'm interested in knowing if anything
about it is obvious.
http://www.primers.jymes.com/SP001.htm

For an alien race the figures look a tad too humanoid, which already points
us to the "correct" interpretation. Trouble is, we're now stuck with that
and replacing the humanoid by an arbitrary shape would not return us to
innocence.

I knew that could be an issue, but I went ahead with those graphics so
as to not put too much strain on the user or create extra work for
myself.

I believe it is reasonable to assume that if a grade school primer
could be found, then images of the aliens would be available. An
explorer on a depopulated Earth would see many pictures of humans and
the stylized images we use long before they find and identify a
school.

(They might be confused by the signs on bathrooms, assuming that only
stylish women and traditional Scotsmen are allowed to use one (the
'skirted' icon) and all other females and most males use the other
(the one with pants).)

To make this primer "pure," it should have an introduction including
pictures of the aliens and all other info that might possibly be
pertinent. From that, a person viewing the material should be able to
make a connection between what they look like and their stylized
images.

That, however, would put an extra burden on the user, one that would
detract from the task at hand of relating icons to words.

It would also mean my having to draw the aliens somewhat
realistically, show pictures of houses, cars, household items, animals
that might be pets, etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum ad nauseam.

My opting to leap over the step of equating alien physiology to icons
lets me get to the heart of the matter (the language) and saves me
tons of work. :)

Post by Prai Jei
Though I must say my first thoughts on page 1, reading down the middle
column, were "me", "my partner", "we got together" and "this is the
result". Obviously it's not a grammatical primer at all, it's a sex
education manual :)

When I tried to disconnect and look at it objectively, I could see
that it might be read as man, woman, couple, family. I'm afraid I
don't know a way around that.

But the fact that you saw the "me" and the "another person" is
encouraging.

Thanks!

[Prai Jei]

Post by Jyme
On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 20:32:26 +0100, Prai Jei

Post by Prai Jei

Post by Jyme
Current situation -- I've prepared three pages of a spelling primer
for a fictional alien race. I'm interested in knowing if anything
about it is obvious.
http://www.primers.jymes.com/SP001.htm

For an alien race the figures look a tad too humanoid, which already
points us to the "correct" interpretation. Trouble is, we're now stuck
with that and replacing the humanoid by an arbitrary shape would not
return us to innocence.

I knew that could be an issue, but I went ahead with those graphics so
as to not put too much strain on the user or create extra work for
myself.
I believe it is reasonable to assume that if a grade school primer
could be found, then images of the aliens would be available. An
explorer on a depopulated Earth would see many pictures of humans and
the stylized images we use long before they find and identify a
school.
(They might be confused by the signs on bathrooms, assuming that only
stylish women and traditional Scotsmen are allowed to use one (the
'skirted' icon) and all other females and most males use the other
(the one with pants).)
To make this primer "pure," it should have an introduction including
pictures of the aliens and all other info that might possibly be
pertinent. From that, a person viewing the material should be able to
make a connection between what they look like and their stylized
images.
That, however, would put an extra burden on the user, one that would
detract from the task at hand of relating icons to words.
It would also mean my having to draw the aliens somewhat
realistically, show pictures of houses, cars, household items, animals
that might be pets, etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum ad nauseam.
My opting to leap over the step of equating alien physiology to icons
lets me get to the heart of the matter (the language) and saves me
tons of work. :)

Post by Prai Jei
Though I must say my first thoughts on page 1, reading down the middle
column, were "me", "my partner", "we got together" and "this is the
result". Obviously it's not a grammatical primer at all, it's a sex
education manual :)

When I tried to disconnect and look at it objectively, I could see
that it might be read as man, woman, couple, family. I'm afraid I
don't know a way around that.
But the fact that you saw the "me" and the "another person" is
encouraging.
Thanks!

Looking at the right column, to incorporate it into a consistent
interpretation of the whole thing, prompts a re-interpretation of most of
it. This is what we get. I've set out the captions according to the
positions of the pictures on page 1, you may need a fixed-pitch font to
appreciate it. Read down the columns then across from left to right.


THE POPULATION EXPLOSION CRISIS

THE PROBLEM THE CAUSE THE SOLUTION

Currently any person Every person will be
continually watched by
a population control
can meet with a person officer
of opposite mating type

So if that person
does meet one of
Get together opposite mating type


Our world is And before you know it This will not [1] happen
threatened by the problem continues to because the presence
unchecked the next generation. of the officer will
population growth. inhibit all breeding
activity.



[1] I have had to assume that the caption for the bottom right corner pic
includes a negation somewhere. :)

[Jyme]

On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 22:17:20 +0100, Prai Jei

Post by Prai Jei

Post by Jyme
On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 20:32:26 +0100, Prai Jei

Post by Jyme
Current situation -- I've prepared three pages of a spelling primer
for a fictional alien race. I'm interested in knowing if anything
about it is obvious.
http://www.primers.jymes.com/SP001.htm

Looking at the right column, to incorporate it into a consistent
interpretation of the whole thing, prompts a re-interpretation of most of
it. This is what we get.

<snip>

:) Thanks.

Did you get anything from the second and third pages, perhaps
something about the structure of the words?

[Jason Knight]

Hello,

I am new, but thought I would reply to you message nonetheless. I looked over your slides a few times, and found them a bit confusing considering your message. This must be because I lack some essential information. But if you don't mind, I have some small comments. If you are interested.

Post by Jyme
Background -- For many years, I've been playing with the concept of
alien math (not Base10, no zero, etc.) and how hard it might be to
recognize or reconcile with our system.

It's just my limited understanding, but it seems that number is something that exists independently of the language used to describe it. It is not that we have a concept called zero, but that we recognize a universal concept of 0 and name it. Not recognizing it would more likely indicate a lower level of intellectual development, or so I think. I could certainly be wrong.

On the topic of Base 2,5,8,10,12,16,20,60 and so on, it seems to me that humans have used most of them at one time or another, and they were often times developed by the educated class of certain periods based upon personal "numerology" beliefs of some perfection or another. Base 10 seems to have been created to be more logically consistent and easy too use, but is still human dependent. Why would your race elect to have a separate system? I am in no way saying the choice is bad, duodecimal and hexadecimal are both very intriguing systems, and a technologically superior race might perhaps choose hexadecimal due to it's ease of use with binary? I simply wonder why you want it different, is it only to be different for difference sake?

Post by Jyme
As I delved deeper into the idea, I realized a basic philosophical
shift was necessary. We accept that many things must be learned by
rote. Aliens might shun that, preferring very few arbitrary symbols,
their combinations/positions giving wider meaning.

I am not sure I follow. When the brain of some arbitrary being encounters information, it needs to decide whether or not it is worth keeping for the long term, or throwing away. A race could conceivably have an intrinsic eidetic memory, otherwise it has to choose which stimuli to consider pertinent, and of that stimuli which is worth remembering. The act of learning by rote is a method of focusing attention on things that do not by their nature interest us, but lead to things that will be interesting. It's simply a method of focusing attention so that something can be forcibly transferrred to long term memory. There are other systems and theories about how to assimilate information. I personally use a mnemonic system based on the work of Lorayne to great success, and find I rarely need to repeat simple concepts more than 3-4 times before having them committed to memory.

I am simply pointing out that learning by rote is a method based on an understanding of how the brain acquires some discrete information and stores it in long term memory.

Would the brains of your race work differently? Naturally eidetic? How would they transfer things from short term to long term memory. Understanding of course that short and long term memory are concepts about how the brain works for humans, maybe it is different for aliens, but then how?

Post by Jyme
This led me to think about the structure of their vocabulary and how
hard it might be for us to understand even the basics.
Current situation -- I've prepared three pages of a spelling primer
for a fictional alien race. I'm interested in knowing if anything
about it is obvious.
http://www.primers.jymes.com/SP001.htm
(There's an explanation page for each, but please don't take one fast
glance at a page and give up.)
(I should warn you that it's rough -- the nature of using 'print
screen' to capture a CAD page, cropping the image, and posting it as a
jpeg. Also, I stopped refining the font when it hit the 'minimum
acceptable clarity' level rather than doing the fiddling bits ad
infinitum.)

I would strongly suggest that you try out sketch book pro, or some other drawing software. CAD seems a bit difficult to work with...

Post by Jyme
Any comments welcome. :)

Well, good luck, and hope you work things out.

[chinatown]

Post by Jyme
Aliens might shun that, preferring very few arbitrary symbols,
their combinations/positions giving wider meaning.
Current situation -- I've prepared three pages of a spelling primer
for a fictional alien race. I'm interested in knowing if anything
about it is obvious.
http://www.primers.jymes.com/SP001.htm

I like this idea, although there are assumptions in your use of the base symbols that immediately identify you, author of the primer, as not of this alien race -- primarily, that you felt the need for the initial symbol to distinguish the species or race. If one assumes an alien race that uses a minimum of symbols to differentiate things in their world, the singular entity or first person (your "me") would be assumed, and their would be no need for a written symbol. I.e., one alien referring to himself does not need to *refer* to himself.

Another assumption in this language is that the alien race is an individualistic one, that a single alien's sense of self is singular. There's so many implications that go along with that, which make this alien race inherently familiar to our way of thinking.

Let's say we go along with that, though. There is an alien race that is individualistic in its sense of self, that possesses two genders and a neutral. Even with those assumptions, I get stuck pretty soon.

In page 1, you use the uptick (^) symbol to represent Self, and the downtick symbol to represent Other. Then the closed omega as the Strange Other (the Other not immediately in relation to Self).

It would follow, if we stuck with the idea that this race preferred minimal symbol use, there is no need to distinguish between 2 and any other quantity of Strange Others; that symbol, through meaning of its base symbols, would be more likely (to me) to mean "you all" (Strange Other with Other, reading left to right). The other symbols here made sense to me.

Then Page 2 gets crazy.

You've established the closed omega as Strange Other, so why as a subcategory does it get attributed as the other gender? It would make more sense that the alien assumes Self to be its own gender (or the primary heirarchical gender), and Other to be the second gender. If a gender were neutral, that is, unidentified or unknown, then in a two-gender world it would be foreign -- and it would stand to reason the Strange Other symbol would apply as the neutral gender subcategory.

That said, I like that the closed omega flipped with be a symbol meaning a described attribute (I would think of it as the flip or underside meaning of Strange Other, meaning more like Strange Inherent... thus "attribute").

Considering the simplicity of all the other symbols, I don't understand why breeding has to be so complex with all those lines. That's just confusing, and I had no idea what they meant. I figured it was some kind of verb.

I feel like the concept of offspring would be more easily described by an overlap of the first two symbols (Self and Other) into a single shape (like a diamond), or a rotation of the first symbol (like >)- especially as you premised/promised that the position of the symbol would change its meaning.

Just my thoughts, three years later. But this is a cool exercise and does make me think. Thanks!

[chinatown]

Sorry, I should have specified that both (a) there would be no need to identify one's race before every other symbol because it would be assumed unless you were talking about *another* race, and (b) it would be redundant to refer to yourself as ^^ (human-me), and with a preference for written simplicity, it would be an unwritten assumption I'm talking about "me" unless otherwise specified.

Actually, that kind of makes me think about how English is one of the last languages to acceptably drop the use of "I" in a sentence in proper grammar... I'm assuming here that English is your primary but I'd be very interested to know if it's not and what impact you have thought that my have when thinking about an alien-thinking alien race...

On Saturday, September 14, 2013 7:36:12 PM UTC-4, chinatown wrote:
I like this idea, although there are assumptions in your use of the base symbols that immediately identify you, author of the primer, as not of this alien race -- primarily, that you felt the need for the initial symbol to distinguish the species or race. If one assumes an alien race that uses a minimum of symbols to differentiate things in their world, the singular entity or first person (your "me") would be assumed, and their would be no need for a written symbol. I.e., one alien referring to himself does not need to *refer* to himself.

[m***@googlemail.com]

I appreciate that this may be a little late, but in the hope you come back to look at this, my comment may be of use.

It stikes me that your symbol for 'human' is virtually identical to the Chinese symbol for 'person': 人. Another point to bear in mind is how are you writing the language?

Pictorial, as in Ancient Egyptian
Logographic, as in Chinese
Sylballic, as in Japanese Hiragana & Katakana
Alphabetic, as in the Latin alphabet or Greek

Or another method? Does one exist? These are just ideas. Looking at your diagrams, you appear to have chosen a Logographic method, but with a European method of combination.

Another point to consider is the spoken word. How do you want to convey this information outside of writing? Do they even use sound? This will affect how the language is constructed. For a truly alien language the ideas of noun, adjective, verb, etc. will need to be drastically rewrought.

Just a thought. If you decide they use sound, and equate a string of sounds to a symbol (a word), you can transliterate this to human letters. This will make discusing the language much easier. For the sounds to use, again for a truly alien language, alien sounds will have to be invented. Use the IPA for a list of ALL human sounds.

Best of luck!